Declan Shalvey’s second Irish crime OGN, Bog Bodies, is set to be released May 27, and after reading it we were reminded of a recent comic book serializing online, Write It In Blood.
How? Crime. Dark comedy. The past coming back to haunt people.
Add to that, both writers are Irish – Shalvey from Ennis, and Write It In Blood‘s Rory McConville from Cork, just an hour-and-a-half drive south of him.
Turns out, they know each other – and were raring to talk about their books. Given their projects similarities and friendship, Newsarama decided to set the two creators up to talk to each other, and get out of the way. Here goes…
Declan Shalvey: Hey Rory, thanks for doing this. You and I know each other a long time and I’ve seen you write various genres in the past, like sci-fi action in Judge Dredd, or historical drama in Big Jim: Jim Larkin and the 1913 Lockout, etc. This new book you’ve serialised online, Write It In Blood, is really different from everything you’ve done before. More like a crime drama in a more mainstream miniseries format. I really, really enjoyed it, but I was wondering what made you decide to do this story, in this way?
Rory McConville: Cheers Dec.
There’s a few reasons – first of all, I’ve always loved offbeat crime stories; the films and plays of people like Shane Black, Martin McDonagh, Quentin Tarantino, etc. are some of my favorites, and this was a chance to do one myself.
It was also throwing down a bit of a challenge to myself to try something in a different genre and format. A lot of the stories I’ve written in the past have been high concept sci-fi, which, by their nature, have required a level of compression. A chapter of Judge Dredd, for example, is between six to 10 pages. I love writing stories like that – and they’re a great way of training you not to leave any fat on a story – but I also wanted to do something that had a bit more space to breathe. There’s still plenty of action in Write It In Blood of course, but working on something of this size (with each issue being 27+ pages) gives the opportunity to dig into the characters a bit more.
Was there ever a time where you considered Bog Bodies as a serialised story or was it always a graphic novel? Having read it, it seems ideally suited to the graphic novel format. It’s your second creator-owned graphic novel (after 2017’s great Savage Town) and I’m curious if there’s something that particularly appeals to you about the graphic novel format or if you decide on a story-by-story basis?
Shalvey: I hear you re: Black, McDonagh, and Tarantino. I know I’m older than you, but I suspect we probably have some similar influences as those kinds of stories were part of a definite subculture our generation tuned into when we were growing up in Ireland in the late 90s/early 2000s.
And yes, working in that shorter story form is a great way to learn how to be economic and direct, but it’s nice to have the option of chewing on a splash page of a desert road, and I think you use it to great effect… you know when and how to use those tools.
As to your question, well honestly, I kind of fell into it. I initially pitched Savage Town as an ongoing series, but Eric Stephenson [Image Comics’ Publisher] suggested we do it as an original graphic novel. I was just happy he was willing to publish it, so yeah, graphic novel, whatever you say boss!
In the end I do think it was the right call as everything interesting about the book as a graphic novel would have been what would make a reader not go past 20 pages of a single issue. You kind of needed to dig into that world and I think it clicks in a satisfying way by the time you’re 30 pages in, and pays off. With Bog Bodies, this was a much tighter story and I think I could have made it into a miniseries but I had three reasons for doing it as an OGN.
One, I liked that it followed the format of Savage Town, somewhat linking it to that world. Two, making it longer that 80 pages would have been padding it out, and I didn’t think four 20-page issues would be a satisfying read but mainly it came down to the third point… When we follow Killian into that bog, we’re stuck there. There’s no flashbacks, or cutting away back to the city… I wanted the reader to feel like there is no escape from that environment, and breaking every 20 pages would have ripped that feeling away from the reader. It felt better to just keep it as a nice, tight graphic novel.
Having had the opportunity to work in the format we mentioned, were there new different challenges or advantages you discovered? I found some of my favorite parts of the story weren’t the action bits, or the plot, but a lot of the character dynamics that, in theory, you didn’t need. Like the animosity between the two brothers, Cosmo and Arthur, or some of the silly rants some of the smaller characters have. I’ve found that stuff comes to me as I’m writing… when all the plot stuff is figured out, I find I can spread my wings a bit more and find room for more humour.
Was that the case for you, or it is all planned meticulously?
Self-Portrait
Credit: Rory McConville
McConville: I think it’s a bit of both. I’m definitely a fairly thorough planner – I know there’s plenty of writers who can just improv their way through a story but I need a detailed outline and ideally (but not always) to know the ending ahead of time. Most times I don’t even end up sticking to a lot of what’s in the outline, but it’s still very useful to have and frees me up to come up with the funnier, more character-driven bits.
I’m glad you’re enjoying those smaller character beats by the way. Some of the moments with smaller characters like Cosmo’s realtor or Harry, the Baron’s right-hand man, bitching about his phone addiction, are some of my favourites. A lot of that is just to keep myself entertained – if I think a character is boring, how can I expect the reader not to?
Being able to sit with your characters and get to know them a bit better like that is probably the one of the biggest advantages of the format. It’s not a case of slowing things down – you still want to keep the reader engaged and tension high, but that extra space just gives you a little bit more time to explore beats and turn potentially one-note characters into something more interesting, while also fleshing out the world of the story. It’s those kinds of details that can really give a story its own flavor and identity. There’s also obviously more space for Joe to cut loose on certain pages, which gives us more control over the pacing and atmosphere.
Write It In Blood doesn’t have a large cast by any stretch but compared to Bog Bodies, it’s massive. Even with the breakneck thriller pace of the story, you do a great job of imbuing each character with their own distinctive personality, which is all the more impressive considering the restrictions you’ve put on yourself in writing it. I think your reasoning for keeping it as a graphic novel makes total sense, as you really get to trap the reader with that sense of claustrophobia, and while it would still probably work as a serial, it might not be as impactful as it is as an OGN. Equally, as you’ve mentioned, there are no flashbacks, no real cutaways other than between the hunters and the hunted. A lot of great stuff comes out of setting restrictions for yourself and it seems you definitely went into the story with some clear ones in mind for yourself, but I’m curious if it ever felt constricting?
Declan Shalvey
Credit: Image Comics
Shalvey: Similarly, I need to know the ending. Sometimes it might shift, I have changed endings before, I kinda twisted the end of Bog Bodies as I was writing the last chapter, but I still had a clear idea of how I wanted to end it, even if the details shifted a bit by the end. I worked with Heather Antos on this book and she really forced me to heavily outline, as I think I have a bad habit of keeping details in my head, and of course, the artist or reader can’t actually read my mind.
I know there’s a lot of talk for and against decompression in storytelling, but I think it’s more about the real estate of an issue. You have more pages and space in Write It In Blood, but you have these great moments with silent panels where certain jokes land… they just wouldn’t work in a tighter, more compressed format. You use the space really effectively. I read a review that called this book ‘cinematic’ and while I think that a lot of that comes down to Joe’s work, I think a big part of it is also the deliberate pace to the story. It has a pulse that feels ‘filmic’, which I know is something that is in my head when I’m writing or drawing something.
And cheers man. The previous book Savage Town had a lot of characters, it was a more sprawling story. I knew I wanted this to be a lot tighter than what I’d done before. Also, I think there’s a level of manipulation of the audience there as Killian is very quickly sucked into a very bad situation… you feel for him pretty quick, and then boom, you’re already in the story. I’m glad you think the format worked as looking back, I think I could have made it a four issue series and made more money back that way… but it really is in the right format, I feel strongly about that.
Actually, I like restrictions. Not all restrictions of course, but the bit of work for hire writing I’ve done I actually quite enjoyed as there were built-in restrictions, and they didn’t bother me. Is it five issues…? A one shot…? A graphic novel…? Knowing what the format, or having certain restrictions gives me an immediate start, even if it’s to push against those restrictions.
I have a harder time with creator-owned stuff to a degree as the canvas is sometimes too broad. The decision is yours, so you end up agonizing over it more.
I remember when we were starting Injection, the five-book format was one of the first things Warren Ellis had suggested. The format informing how the story was told (by a master of the medium!) removed the mystique of the ‘perfect’ idea for me and let me think about the story as a design problem, which made it more accessible to me.
So, I like certain restrictions, and if I don’t have any, I need to make some for myself. Like as I was saying, not cutting away, or having a consistency in the language, or rules for how certain characters talk. For me, it’s like drawing an XY axis on a blank page. It’s no longer blank, I’m immediately looking at it as an image with four quadrants, and I can start hammering away at it.
I mentioned how Joe really created a certain aesthetic earlier. How did you find Joe Palmer? I hadn’t really heard of him before, a mutual friend of ours showed me his stuff just before ye started working together. I love his stuff, it’s so fully formed, wonderfully composed and designed. How was working on one bigger narrative with him on this, as opposed to the more condensed 2000AD work?
McConville: Joe and I actually both won the Thought Bubble 2000 AD Writing and Art Competitions a few years back, which is how I ended up coming across his work in the first place.
(For those who don’t know, every year 2000 AD runs a writing and art competition at Thought Bubble. Writers pitch a Future Shock in under 2 minutes and artists have to draw pages from a sample script. Both get judged in front of a panel and whoever wins gets a gig with 2000AD. It’s horrifically nerve-wracking but highly recommended for anyone trying to break into comics.)
Joe ended up drawing my script, Lifosuction, which was about two rival chrono-cosmetic surgeons (think plastic surgery for your timeline) who find themselves working on the same patient at different points in his life. Joe’s work, particularly his storyelling, was really impressive. We worked together on another story for 2000 AD a year or two later and had spoken a bit about working on something so when I was looking for someone to collaborate with on Write It In Blood, I checked in with him and thankfully he was keen to do it.
I think you’re right about the real estate of an issue. It’s just about having the space to alter the tempo as the story requires and not finding yourself in a position where you’re tripping over yourself to get all the plot rolled out before you run out of pages. Joe really handles that well and his work has really jumped to a new level on this – his character work has always been great but it particularly shines here. There’s a few phone call sequences in the book and he’s just got a real knack for capturing those small moment-to-moment, panel-to-panel beats. I’m just trying to lock him into another project before he gets snapped up by someone else!
Definitely agree that the freedom of creator-owned stuff can occasionally be a bit paralysing. One of the things that’s so great about working on work-for-hire stuff is that you’ve got these pre-existing worlds or formats that you just have to slot into. With creator-owned, suddenly you can do anything but you can also do anything. It’s just about giving yourself something to work with, isn’t it? Rather than the terror of the blank page. I’ve found the budget is usually a great restriction!
To circle back to the collaborators, Gavin Fullerton, the artist on Bog Bodies, has an incredibly versatile style. I did a short with him a few years back but if you put that next to Bog Bodies, I doubt you’d know the two styles were the same artist. How did you come across him and what made him the man for the job?
Shalvey: Ye’re a great pairing, I really like Joe’s strong composition work and that he’s cut out all the fat. With a lot of high contrast work, you can see some artists hiding bad drawing (I used to do that a lot, starting out) but you can tell he knows exactly how to draw all this stuff, knows were to pull back, where to exaggerate, etc. He has a clear, strong voice and that goes so far in a story being believable and having a sense of authenticity. Yeah, if I were you, I’d lock that down ASAP!
Yeah, with work for hire, so much of the groundwork is done. You don’t have to ‘introduce’ the characters as much (everyone knows who Dredd or Deadpool is, so for the most part you can just get moving, there’s a shorthand there that you can take advantage of). With creator-owned, not only do you have to figure all that out, but how much of it, and how much you need to make the reader care when they have no investment yet. That’s why I do like restrictions; it gives you somewhere to start from.
Gavin has a background in animation so I think he’s learned to be flexible regarding styles. I met him when he was a student in a storytelling workshop I used to do in Dublin. I barely noticed him to be honest, he was quiet as a mouse, but did good work. At the end of the last class, he just handed me all these zines he had made, like three or four different ones, all excellently made, all drawn in completely different styles. I was blown away, really. He came along to some conventions and we’d chat a bit, he’d always have new pages but I’d never know what the hell they were going to look like, it was funny, but always impressive.
I knew I wanted to see what a Gavin Fullerton book would look like, so I brought up the idea I had for Bog Bodies. He seemed to like it, so we talked a bit more. I wanted the book to be a platform for what his ‘voice’ would be. I think I have a good idea of the quality Gavin is going for in his work, and he got to bush the boldness and grittiness he was looking for with our book. As it turned out though, after we pitched the book to Image, he got a gig adapting a Patrick McHale story for BOOM! Studios called Bags (Or a Story Thereof) and he did a brilliant job on it, so he didn’t really need my help in the end. But still, with this book, it’s great to see he now has two graphic novels under his belt. I hope it continues!
I’d be doing the book a diservice not mentioning the rest of the team on Write It In Blood – Hassan Otsmane-Elhaou has fast become a staple of new, interesting books, I really liked what he did on this book, the lettering and balloons really suited Joe’s more design orientated work. I do think though, that Chris O’Halloran took Joe’s work and shot it into space with his color work. What a pairing. This is definitely some of the most beautiful work he’s done.
McConville: Agreed. Chris and I are both from Cork so we’ve known each other a good while and we’ve been looking for a chance to work together on something for the last year or so. He’s a busy man though so it took awhile for the stars to align. I wish I could say I’d known in advance how effective a pairing he and Joe would make but even I was surprised at just how well they work together.
Hass similarly elevated the book and I think we’re rapidly reaching a point where it’ll be quicker to list the projects he’s not involved in than the ones he is. The man’s a machine and I honestly don’t know when (or even if) he sleeps.
Basically, I’m doing everything I can to keep working with everyone involved with the book.
Your own team aren’t too bad either, mind you. Clayton Cowles is one of the best letterers in the business right now and Rebecca Nalty’s choice of color palette really adds to that murky feeling of horror and hopelessness.
Speaking of horror, Bog Bodies is a crime story first and foremost, but there’s also an added horror element that wasn’t present in Savage Town (depending on your view of Limerick, of course). I’ve only written horror a few times and while I’ve enjoyed it, I’m not totally sure it’s an area I’d be instinctively drawn to. How did you find it, and would you write another horror? Do you even consider Bog Bodies to be a horror or have I mislabeled it?
Shalvey: Oh I didn’t realise this was the first time you and Chris worked together. Well, ye’re off to a good start! Same with Hass, he’s everywhere, and comics is better for it.
Yeah, I’ve worked with Clayton as much as I can; when I do a Marvel book, I ask for him (but don’t always get him, as he’s in huge demand. With Bog Bodies, with it being in the same ‘world’ as Savage Town, I wanted to keep the same style of lettering so I wanted that consistency. I don’t think anyone else would be as patient with all the ‘ye’s and ‘yeh’s written for the accents.
Actually, I had asked Clayton to use the same font as Savage Town but I love that he actually went with a similar font, but changed it to suit Gav’s work more, it was such a subtle but excellent choice. Any reviews we’ve gotten have been very complimentary about Rebecca’s work and I’ve been delighted to see that especially. She works on a lot of books at other publishers but I think this was a very different project for her and I hope it gave her the chance to flex some different muscles. When I showed friends Gavin’s work, a lot said that we should just leave it in black and white, but everyone has taken it back since seeing Rebecca’s work. Actually.. she’s another creator from Cork, now that I think of it. Must be something in the water there!
[Laughs] Watch out, Limerick will come for ya! Honestly, I devised Bog Bodies as a straight-up crime book but when I told Heather Antos the idea… she pointed out that it was really a horror story. That’s a perspective I hadn’t really thought of before, but decided to embrace it. I definitely was going for something darker and moodier, and horror really works for that but it seeped in more as I wrote it, I think. I didn’t lean heavily into the survivalist horror of it all, but there’s definitely an element of it in there. There’s other horror elements in there too, but you’ve read the book… you can see why I wouldn’t want to telegraph that much.
I think it’s funny that while I think of you more as a sci-fi writer, you’ve got this beautiful, stripped down crime-noir story, and I’m more known for superhero work, yet I have a similar book coming out at the same time. They’re both very different, but to me have a similar tone, or would you disagree. Also, now that the book is fully released, how do you feel about it? Would you ever return to this story, or is it totally ended? Would you ever try to print this whole story as a collection? You do have that cover I drew for you…
McConville: Yeah, a print collection is something I’d like to do at some point in the future but there’s no immediate plans. Right now, the best (and only) place to get it is online.
It’s funny you say that about something in the water. Every now and then I remember that there’s a bizarrely high number of Irish people working in comics, given the size of the country.
Nah, I’d agree that there are definite similarities between Bog Bodies and Write It In Blood – past actions coming back to haunt characters, tested loyalties, a tragic sense of inevitability. There’s also a similar thread of dark comedy that runs through both.
As far as whether there’ll be more of Write It In Blood, I couldn’t see myself returning to this world at the moment – this is very much a complete self-contained story, and, as with most crime stories, there’s a fairly high body count. Some stories work really well as ongoings but more often than not, I think endings should be endings and not pauses. Saying that, I would definitely do another story in this style and vein. I might even do one set in Ireland next time…
I’m really happy with how the book’s turned out. I’ve seen each issue at various stages of production along the way, but I only get to see the fully finished versions a few days before they go live. I’m proud of the work the whole team’s put into it and it’s been great to see it getting such a positive response — particularly that the characters really seem to be resonating with people.
What about you – would you ever revisit any of the characters in Bog Bodies or Savage Town? Are there plans for spin-offs, crossovers and ultimately… Crisis on Infinite Irelands? [Laughs] Or do you prefer having them existing in their own self-contained pocket of the burgeoning Shalvey-verse?
Connected to that, as mentioned earlier, Bog Bodies is your second Irish crime graphic novel – are there any plans for a third? I know you’ve written and drawn some work-for-hire projects, and have a few creator-owned projects in the works, but would you ever consider writing and drawing an Irish crime book yourself?
Shalvey: I agree, I like Write It In Blood as a self-contained story. Same as Bog Bodies, actually. Savage Town had room to expand I think, but I like Bog Bodies as the tight, self-contained book that it is. Personally, I’d love to see it collected in print if there are any publishers out there reading this, hint hint.
What are you working on at the moment, if you don’t mind me asking? You’re regularly doing work published at 2000 AD right? Anything else in the works?
[Laughs] I like that Crisis idea!
Well to me, both of the published books have a connection, eagle-eyed readers of Savage Town will likely pick up on it. I have a couple of ideas for Irish-set crime stories, one about a single mum in the 80s (the Garda from Savage Town would feature) and another set in the North, with artists in mind for both. If Bog Bodies does well, I’d like to move forward on those, maybe even do one of them as a slightly longer monthly series.
I’d also love to do a one-off anthology book, like those Dandy/Beano annuals, but with Irish creators doing short stories (me, Phil, Gav could all write/draw short stories as well as others) As you mentioned, there’s a lot of Irish talent in comics right now and I think there’s more than enough to put a great one off anthology together. I think that’d be a lot of fun, I just don’t know if it’d sell, and I can’t afford to spend the money to find out, the graphic novels are costly enough as it is!
Thanks to Image though, these graphic novels have let me experiment with the format more, I’m grateful for the opportunity, the flexibility, and I’d like to continue to do that if possible.
Outside of that anthology idea, me writing and drawing an Irish crime story? Wow, good question, man. Well, my main problem is that I make a living from drawing, so most of my time is occupied drawing work-for-hire stuff. I’ve toyed with the idea of writing/drawing a graphic novel on the side, like Jeff Lemire somehow manages to do all the time (!) but I find that my focus tends to be on the projects that have a more pressing deadline.
I was in Italy a while ago and I discovered the work of Gipi, and it really made me want to write/draw a crime story, maybe in a slightly different style. I was looking at his books Land of the Sons and Notes For A War Story, which are black and white line drawing, and colored washes respectively.
I’d really like to try that, and a story set closer to home feels like a great opportunity to do that. I am aware though, that most probably like my more bombastic work so I don’t know if the audience that follow me would take an interest. The main issue though, is time and money. By doing work for hire, I can afford to pay an artist, which I enjoy as I like the collaboration, but also that I can get a project made while also paying the bills.
I have it in my mind that when I write/draw an Irish crime book, it’ll be the last in that line of ‘Paddywhackery’ books, if Image are even open to publishing another one! If a book like Bog Bodies does well, then writing/drawing a whole one myself becomes a much more realistic option.
McConville: Please brand it as ‘The Paddywhackery Trilogy’ if you do end up doing it!
Yeah, I can imagine the time investment with writing and drawing your own book is enormous – I don’t know how Jeff Lemire manages to put out as much as he does. It’s also a lot of risk for a creator to be taking on for a single project. It’s a tricky one to balance when you’ve still got to eat. And equally, while you get that singular vision, you also miss out on some of the benefits of collaborating. Hadn’t heard of Gipi but will make sure to check out some of his stuff.
That anthology idea sounds great by the way – and could be a way to shine a light on a lot of great Irish artists whose style might not fit within mainstream comics (though aware unconventional styles and anthologies aren’t exactly the easiest sell at the best of times). It’s given me an image of a hyper-violent Beano/Dandy annual full of cursing! Time to pitch that gritty reboot.
Yeah, I’ve got a few things in the works. On the 2000 AD front, there’s quite a few Dredds on the way. 2000 AD works very far in advance – I had something that came out this week that I’d written almost a year ago for instance – so I think there’s a backlog of about seven or eight Dredd stories upcoming over the next few months. I know Staz Johnson and Karl Richardson are drawing a few of them. The story with Staz is going to be my longest Dredd story so far, so excited to see that come out (I think it starts in June). I’ve also written the Christmas Dredd for this year’s Megazine which was a lot of fun to be asked to do.
Outside of 2000 AD, I’m developing a crime miniseries that has a sprinkling of sci-fi. I’m working with a great artist (another Irishman in fact!) and we’re hoping to start pitching it around soon enough. Alongside that there’s a few other crime and sci-fi miniseries at various stages of development.
What about yourself?
Shalvey: [Laughs] Don’t worry, I plan on it being the Paddywhackery trilogy, or quadrilogy, or whatever I can pull off!
Oh wow, I didn’t realise 2000 AD worked that far ahead.
As for me, I just finished writing/drawing a short story for an anthology that I imagine will be out very soon.
I was nearly finished drawing a Punisher mini but that was paused, along with a chunk of other Marvel books. Looks like I have a new project that will keep me busy for a while art-wise, which is nice considering all the recent turmoil.
I’ve certainly landed on my feet, jammy bastard that I am. I’m currently writing/doing covers for an event miniseries to come out later in the year. I also have a couple of pitches in the works but it’ll probably take a while for those to see the light of day, with me having to shift gears. Thankfully, I’m kept plenty busy, which is how I like it.
Well Rory, thanks for taking the time to talk to me. In case it’s not clear, I love the book and I hope people go check it out right now if they love good stories, especially good crime stories. And if they like that, then they should go and pick up my Bog Bodies book, out on May 27 from Image Comics!
McConville: Cheers Dec!